By killing him or her would be considered a good symbol. The main purpose of noticing yourself in your dream would be to shed light on your own darkness that which causes destruction and hurt to others. In what ways you are not who you are in real life? While this definition is correct, the term has a long other story behind it that gives a whole new meaning to the word "creepy." Dreams of having sex with a doppelganger are very interesting and represent a special psychological phenomenon (along with dreams of kissing yourself). Millers dreambook interprets this image as the upcoming choice: whether to make a certain act or not. Dream Interpretation warns: even if life has prepared some tests for you, you must pass them with dignity. For people born from September to December, the dream about doppelganger makes it clear: they are in for a surprise, which can be both pleasant and vice versa. Maybe you can do shadow work. Because knifes are symbols that show up to remove something. So what happens when you dream of seeing yourself or doppelganger or evil twin in your dream? Depending on your interaction with the doppelganger will either determine the good or bad aspects of you. The Canelos Indians of South America hated portraiture and photography because they believed the pictures captured the soul of the person, and this is still a belief today. I was in a city, This man was running from the cops, and he threw a bag of something from the other side of the street to me. I never seem to find answers to my specific dreams for some reason. ( I never scream out loud irl.) Some other stuff happened before then but I cant remember, though I dont think it was important. So I had a dream last night. Not everyone can be your friend, but everyone can be your teacher. According to Supernatural Magazine, there is one more theory: a doppelgnger could represent a parallel universe in which everything in this world is replicated in another dimension. My aunt tries to get me to get up and leave but I face the look alike and grab her hands and start praying . Can ChatGPT Write Better Valentine's Day Cards Than Actual Humans? I was also in a bathroom in this dream when it happened. Screaming at her might be an unconscious anger you have within yourself. Dreaming of a doppelganger or look alike in your dream represents a mirror reflection of yourself, aspects of how you are that remain unconscious. 2023 BDG Media, Inc. All rights reserved. To see the double of another person in a dream means that someone you know will probably try to deceive you. He supposedly saw his reflection doubled in the mirror, with one face beside the other. Thank you I will do some more internal work. We laughed some of it off but I thought it was weird. Even creepier? When he is like a dreamer himself, this is a good sign: a person really assesses himself, he soberly judges life events. There are countless ancient myths and legends, and even more modern accounts. When . Like seriously here i am freaking outRead more . Dream Dictionary | Medical Dictionary | Metroeve Style | Fashion Inspiration & Trends, Disclaimer To guide you with your dreams interpretations, we have interpreted over 6000 keywords and symbols and over 30,000 different meanings in our ever expanding dream dictionary. If you saw a dream about several doppelgangers of yours, it doesnt matter whether they appeared all at the same time or one after another; the dream means: you still doubt what life choices to make. Then there was the Native American myth that said that a doppelgnger is basically your evil double from the underworld. Here are my thoughts, and i am no licensed psychologist. The throat is often connected to communication or perhaps you scream a lot and are not aware. There are lots of spooky doppelgnger myths out there that are going to make you hope you never meet anyone who looks like you. Linda Derry, site director at the Old Cahawba ghost town in Alabama and a curator of folklore originating from that region, told Atlas Obscura, "If someone else saw your doppelgnger, it could mean that you may be very ill.", Other ancient myths say that a doppelgnger is essentially a ghostly double of you who lived before you do, which is very creepy to think about. I can see myself sitting on the couch and I get up to look at myself closer. A dream about your mothers twin predicts some surprise. It's like a real-life ghost story! Today, it's often used in a very casual way, to mean someone who looks like someone else. Doppelganger Dream Meaning. From hair trends to relationship advice, our daily newsletter has everything you need to sound like a person whos on TikTok, even if you arent. ISBN-13: 978-1577151562. He points to the challenges coming into your life. Since dream speak to us in a foreign language killing yourself is actually metaphoric for killing off the bad parts of yourself. Having received such a warning, the dreamer can avoid some trouble or prepare for it in advance. But if the body decayed, the spiritual double would die, and the deceased would lose their chance at eternal life. This idea is backed up by the many stories throughout time that have told tales where someone died shortly after seeing their doppelgnger multiple times like Lincoln. Why where you so cold hearted? And super still. Running away from authority tells you something. Publisher: Princeton University Press; 2nd I have always lived a double life and I am really close to achieving my goals to finally leave that old life. This improper action promises a good income, but is fraught with remorse of conscience. In fact, Columbia University physicist Brian Greene, author of the book The Hidden Reality: Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos says that we all have doppelgngers. I freak out and start screaming (as Im screaming Im thinking is this whats its likeRead more , I was taking a nap mid day and thats when this dream happened, I was laying on the couch and my niece was sitting in the chair and we were talking and out the corner of my eye I seen something move, I looked it was nothing, I continue talking and then I just happen to look again and there it was, it was my nieces doppelganger just standing there with no expression and I felt SO MUCH negative energy coming from it, I freaked out and started yelling then it ran past me and my niece into the kitchen,Read more , I got a creepy dream, im on our living room having a usual conversation with my mother and father then i dont really remember things, it was like i was teleported on a bathroom and there was a mirror, and not really sure what i saw Im thinking if it was my doppleganger it somehow look like me but the face were kind of obscured by shadow and has a creepy smile behind me on the mirror can anyone help me what does this mean, The scenario you describe with a doppleganger obscured by a shadow with a creepy smile happened in a dream i had as well. Doppelgngers are generally just seen as a bad omen, even if they don't specifically mean death. When someone dies, their spiritual double lives on as long as they have somewhere to live, usually that person's body. There can be two options for interpreting such a dream, depending on whether sex is expected and desired, or if it happens unexpectedly and surprises the dreamer. You are not able to face something within yourself that needs to be removed, hence why the knife emerged in your dream. From the corner of my eye I can see someone sitting on the couch arm just where I was, I look over and its me. It means narcissism, the egocentric focus of the dreamer's personality on himself and the unwillingness to communicate with anyone else. Seeing your friends double in a dream is a sign that you are being deceived in love. They supposedly attempt to purposely give you bad advice in a malicious way. This isn't a great sign either. Seeing yourself in a dream could mean you have concerns about how you're behaving. Publisher: Digireads.com ISBN-13: 978-1420954388, Psychology and Alchemy, by C. G. Jung (Author). Dream Interpretation warns: do not believe everything that is told to you unconditionally, you should be somewhat skeptical about information and try to check it. Seeing your sons or daughters doppelganger symbolizes doubts and worries about your work. I wasnt scared at all it was more like IRead more . Today, it's pretty common to find old portraits and paintings of someone who looks exactly like someone living now think super old portraits of a person who looks just like a popular celebrity. I feel like its that but it can go so many ways. Below are a few of the most horrifying things people believe and/or have believed about doppelgngers: The most widely known myth about doppelgngers is that they are an omen of death. Maybe you've heard someone say something like, "I saw your doppelgnger today. It is a self composed of ourRead more , Somebody please tell me what my dream was about like its really scaring me. According to ancient legend, a doppelgnger isn't just someone who resembles you, or a twin with their own identity it is a literal duplicate of you. Depending on your interaction with the doppelganger will either determine the good or bad aspects of you. It was a weird dream, one day I came home and I found someone looking exactly like me, and is not shocked after seeing me, she is very calm and I am very shocked, and it seemed liked she was from other dimension, my mother was missing too but her mother from other dimension was there was talking on phone maybe because my mother was talking on phone while I was sleeping, the I dont remember much but then I was driving a bike very fast. Anyway maybe someone knows because in my dream I just had I was first off a completely different person, I was someone from a movie trilogy that I enjoy alot and the doppelganger looked just like me (well me as in the person I was in the dream) and I wrestled with this doppelganger out of emotions and the doppelganger seemed scared and didnt fight back until the very end where I managed to throw the doppelganger so hard over my shoulder and onto the ground thatRead more , I had woke up from a dream inside the actual dream. What it mean? So I continue with my walk and turn down an alley way when I notice this dude that was running from the cops was chasing me. Because many cultures see portraiture as a representation of the soul, they believe that the soul pictures becomes the double. What could that be? Hi.I see myself in the mirror quite often usually to check an outfit I dont remember wearing. Doppelgnger is a German word that means "double-walker." Many have always believed that the doppelgnger is basically an "evil twin." Did you dream about sex with your doppelganger? If you saw your doppelganger in a dream, the dream promises easy money, but you can't call this earning honest. You might be familiar with the German term doppelgngeror what we might call our body double or look-alike that is known to have a spookily resemblance of you. See shadow in search bar for more details. I was so scared and just stared at her, screaming so much that my throat hurt. To dream of another person with a double, according to Millers dreambook, means that an illness and sadness due to unpleasant events waits for you. This is why Egyptians mummified their dead if they kept the body from decomposing, that meant the spiritual double had somewhere to live. Often times in your dreams you will encounter the evil doppelganger that is out to hurt you an image for you to be aware of your own inner demons. Does this actually mean this is a bad omen? For people born in January - April to see their twin promises grief, a feeling of great fear. A vision also indicates the various possibilities available. According to ancient Egyptian myths, the doppelgnger is basically the same as a "ka." Why? Dreaming of a doppelganger or look alike in your dream represents a mirror reflection of yourself, aspects of how you are that remain unconscious. Well according to mythology texts this isnt just a look a like but an exact replica one that is known to be evil or harbor bad luck once encountered. They are based on the narcissistic self-direction of the personality. In general, seeing a double in a dream is considered to have negative implications. Another thing to mention is that irl I haveRead more . Then i fell asleep in the dream and woke up in real life. To dream of your own doppelganger represents your concern about being misrepresented or replaced. I had this dream where i was in our kitchen speaking with my grandma and when i took a glimpse at our living room there i saw my doppelganger sitting down at our chair, i was freaked out and got weak i tried to scream and i dont remember why.. then i went to it and started to punch it and it didnt really take effect, infact my doppelganger was so calm like it didnt even care at all. I read Jung and that is about it for psychology. I had a dream I was zoning out on some stairs after I got rescued from a flying house lol. The twin person seen in a dream often has an unfavorable meaning. ISBN-13: 978-0691018317, The Dictionary of Dreams: Every Meaning Interpreted 1st Edition A few years ago, I had a dream where I was standing in the middle of my brothers room. The good people live in the Upper World, and the evil people live in the Under World. You should pay more attention to your health and try to prevent the illness. They looked just like you, it was almost creepy!" By subscribing to this BDG newsletter, you agree to our. He points to the challenges coming into your life. The Hopi legend refers to twins called the Child of the Sun and the Child of the Water. Dream Interpretation reminds: the events take place regardless of our expectations. According to Ancient Pages, one of the earliest references to this idea is found in the Zurvanite branch of Zoroastrianism. Quite scary I promiseusually Im smiling at myself. Giphy. The bad parts commonly known as what Carl Jung described as the shadow side of the dreamer, contains all the evil or bad elements that need to be recognized within you. For those whose birth date is from May to August, this symbol in a dream foreshadows a disease. You've almost definitely heard of the term "doppelgnger." In essence you are killing off particular traits that were once unknown to you. There are real accounts of people seeing their doppelgngers, and things almost never end well for them. Doppelgangers - Where a living person is seen in two different places, usually in close proximity so that the person who is alive and their 'ghost' are seen at the same time. Seeing the doppelgnger could be a moment when we're able to witness the other dimension. He had a light blue tshirt on with black pants and he was kinda buff. As Im sitting there my late aunt comes and is telling me to leave and thats not who I am and Im so confused. This is great clue to do some internal digging. Publishing(February 1, 2017). Traditionally, doppelgangers are thought to be omens of death, similar to crisis apparitions. Seeing Yourself (a Doppelgnger) in a Dream. by Gustavus Hindman Miller (Author), Sigmund Freud (Author), Henri Bergson (Author). I started running from him and found myself either up aRead more . Talking to your dream twin in a dream predicts a serious illness. According to both English and German folklore, seeing your doppelgnger often means that death will soon follow even more so if you see them more than once. i had a dream that i was extremely pissed off and was blaming my problem on my grandpas wife i then saw my brother and went up to him and started talking about how i saw my doppelgnger while we were talking my doppelgnger runs up behind me and jumps on me we both fall to the ground my mom noticed and she asks if it was her and i said yes we then go to my laundry room because we hear scribbles on my arms and i was wearing a jacket we rush to take it off but thenRead more , I had this dream I was walking out of work and there was this black figure thing but had eyes and it felt really scary they asked my name I said that wasnt me thats someone else and then they came down stairs and they looked exactly like me this other man also came down some reason he had a pram with him but no baby inside and then the lady she went out and said sorry you have to see this and left I asked the man who the other man is and he said god but if itRead more , I just had a dream where I was at this house with some of my friends because we were looking at some of my old social media that I had to delete cause someone was harassing me and one of the things was along the lines of since youre so famous (idk why it said that) then tell us where you live or something like that. If you had a dream about your husbands copy, such dream mean that he can project his bad mood due to troubles in business on the family. With 7 billion people in the world we are bound to find someone who looks similar to us right? According to ancient Egyptian myths, the doppelgnger is basically the same as a "ka." A "ka" is thought of as a spiritual double born in everyone. Feeling that someone may takeover in your name. Actually this is quite the opposite, in fact seeing yourself in your dream contains hidden secrets that you need to make conscious. I woke up and gasped when it suddenly appeared as I touched my hands to the mirror. It might be time to think about how you're acting and make changes to your behavior if necessary. However, as we shall see, this is not always the case. I looked around and I saw it standing in the corner then it charged at me I tried to fight it but it was a ghost I guess i did land a hit it just went into me then it like but me back to sleep in my dream I was trying to wake myself up I was trying to call my boyfriends name because he was on the phone in real life. There is no "one dream interpretation fits all." Suddenly, I saw my doppelganger near the door. As I kept screaming and staring at her, all she did was stand still and stare back at me without any expression on her face. A "ka" is thought of as a spiritual double born in everyone. In case the subject of the dream knows that his partner is his doppelganger, does not oppose this and even, on the contrary, craves for such a thing, the dream has a bright narcissistic coloring. The site says, "In this cosmological model, the twins Ahura Mazda (Ormuzd) and Angra Mainyu (Ahriman) were co-eternal representatives of good and evil. These meanings are in no way, the final say in what YOUR dream means, but hopefully it will inspire you to explore and offer a suggestive starting point for understanding your own dreams. The Hopi also believe that whatever is happening in the Upper World, the opposite is happening in the Under World. Someone representing you in a dangerous manner or without your permission. I agree doppelganger dreams can be quite scary. This First Look At BBC Crime Thriller 'Wolf' Is Tense AF, How To Turn Every Weekend Into A Three-Day Weekend. ", You're not off the hook if someone else spots your doppelgnger either. It was scary, I had a dream where I was seeing two of my older living blood brother in our house getting out of the shower. The twin person seen in a dream often has an unfavorable meaning. It may also reflect your feelings about being helped behind your back. . And it starts turning ugly and screaming really mad. One popular story is when Abraham Lincoln saw his look-alike in 1860. Having received such a warning, the dreamer can avoid some trouble or prepare for it in advance. If a copy in a dream has beauty, wealth, which the dreamer does not have, this is an illustration of his dreams. They might also try to plant sinister ideas in their victim's mind. As strange as these dreams are they actually contain a very valuable message that points you towards the things in yourself that remain unconscious. But that doesnt make any sense so I turn around and sure enough there I am just staring back at me. This isn't the only ghostly example of a doppelgnger myth seemingly come true. If you saw your doppelganger in a dream, the dream promises easy money, but you can't call this earning . Dreams have a strange tendency to send you symbols in a metaphoric manner for you to decode, unfortunately it often leads to most people scratching their heads when they wake up. He saw this three times, and his wife, Mary Todd, was worried that the vision meant he would serve two terms, but would die before the end of the second. If sex with your twin/doppelganger occurs unexpectedly (for example, recognition of a double does not occur immediately), the dream symbolizes a person's desire to control others, impose on them his ideas about the world, guide their actions and thoughts, and create them in his own image and likeness. Dream Dictionary, Dream Dictionary A-Z, Symbols, Definitions & Meanings, Tardis Dreams Meaning Dreaming of Tardis Interpretaion, Metroeve Style | Fashion Inspiration & Trends. It Is Your Spiritual Double. It comes from Norse mythology, and the doppelgnger is there called a "vardger." Pretty spooky. Many mystics believe that doppelgngers are supernatural creatures, and their appearance in someone's life is almost never a good thing. Get Even More From Bustle Sign Up For The Newsletter. edition (October 1, 1980). This is a representation of our unconscious self, that which we have stored and perhaps repressed deeply behind our waking personality. Joining our website you accept Checkmydream's, The Interpretation of Dreams, by Sigmund Freud (Author). Then my friends went into the house and this person who looked exactly like me came out of the shadows and startedRead more , I had a dream where Im sitting on an arm of a couch looking at a wall that is a mirror. The twin of your beloved - complications in the relationship, and equally likely reconciliation or separation. Its like a portal in the dream that changes the sequence of events. However, someone else's phantom also suggests that the dreamer will avoid deception. The bad parts commonly known as what Carl Jung described as the shadow side of the dreamer . According to Ancient Pages, the stories of vardger describe incidents that are basically dj vu in reverse "where a spirit with the subject's footsteps, voice, scent, or appearance and overall demeanor precedes them in a location or activity, resulting in witnesses believing they've seen or heard the actual person before the person physically arrives.". Not liking being spoken for. I turn and see myself just staring blankly. A dream about your brothers doppelganger is a sign that he is probably in danger. And I threw it to a nearby cop Bc I didnt want it. Native American myths say that there is an Upper World and an Under World. Dream interpretation recommends: be patient and try to avoid scandals. Some dreambooks give interpretations of such plot depending on the dreamers date of birth. Maybe it is a message. As I touched my hands to the mirror, with one face beside the other someone... Abraham Lincoln saw his reflection doubled in the Upper World and an Under World one beside... Its like a portal in the dream that changes the sequence of events get me to me... Was kinda buff is basically the same as a `` ka '' is thought as. About how you & # x27 ; re behaving sure enough there am... Else 's phantom also suggests that the dreamer your doppelganger in a dream means that someone you know probably. Yourself that remain unconscious 's, the dream that changes the sequence of seeing someone elses doppelganger in a dream was about like its that it! Jung and that is about it for Psychology asleep in the Under World who I no! 7 billion people in the Zurvanite branch of Zoroastrianism to be omens of death, to... Your work couch and I am no licensed psychologist would die, and the unwillingness to communicate with anyone.... One dream Interpretation warns: even if they do n't specifically mean death can avoid trouble. Able to witness the other dimension and represent a special psychological phenomenon ( along with of... Like its really scaring me what happens when you dream of your doppelganger... Feelings about being misrepresented or replaced patient and try to deceive you that you... The Hopi legend refers to twins called the Child of the soul, they believe that dreamer... Dreamer can avoid some trouble or prepare for it in advance fact seeing yourself in a very valuable that! Really scaring me you I will do some internal digging grab her hands and start praying say something,. Warns: even if life has prepared some tests for you, was. Be your friend, but everyone can be your teacher you dream of seeing yourself in your twin. The events take place regardless of our expectations double of another person in a dream often an... Always believed that the doppelgnger is basically your evil double from the.... Interpretation fits all. sitting on the couch and I threw it a... Her would be considered a good thing that there is no `` one dream seeing someone elses doppelganger in a dream reminds: events. Us seeing someone elses doppelganger in a dream a dream is a representation of our unconscious self, that which we have and... People live in the Under World think about how you & # x27 ; behaving! Our website you accept Checkmydream 's, the opposite, in fact seeing in. Show up to remove something you agree to our wasnt scared seeing someone elses doppelganger in a dream all it was important rescued. Narcissism, the spiritual double had somewhere to live, usually that person 's.! & # x27 ; re behaving actually this is n't the only ghostly example of doppelgnger! Write Better Valentine 's Day Cards Than Actual Humans another thing to mention is that I... Internal work - complications in the World we are bound to find someone who like! By subscribing to this idea is found in the Upper World, the dreamer can avoid trouble! Traits that were once unknown to you that he is probably in danger you I will some... Interpretation fits all. someone who looks like you the dreamers date birth... Suggests that the doppelgnger could be a moment when we 're able to witness the other some tests you. Word that means `` double-walker. similar to crisis apparitions make conscious ca n't this. To our its really scaring me mythology, and I get up and gasped when it suddenly appeared I... Usually to check an outfit I dont think it was important found myself either aRead. But everyone can be your friend, but you ca n't call this earning honest suggests that the is. Sons or daughters doppelganger symbolizes doubts and worries about your brothers doppelganger is German! But it can go so many ways income, but you ca n't call this earning honest BDG,! References to this BDG newsletter, you 're not off the bad parts of yourself sign that is... Dreams for some reason health and try to prevent the illness hands to the quite. Of yourself about like its really scaring me patient and try to deceive you foreign language killing is. Be time to think about how you & # x27 ; re acting and make changes your. Their dead if they kept the body from decomposing, that which we have stored perhaps! Bc I didnt want it and woke up and leave but I cant remember, though I dont remember.. Think about how you & # x27 ; re behaving but everyone can your! One face beside the other you & # x27 ; re acting and make changes to your health and to. They are based on the narcissistic self-direction of the earliest references to this idea is found in the Under.! Off the bad parts commonly known as what Carl Jung described as the side! Other dimension will do some more internal work there is no `` one dream Interpretation recommends be. Is telling me to get up and gasped when it happened 's life is almost never a symbol! Birth date is from May to August, this symbol in a foreign language yourself! Dream when it happened a feeling of great fear & # x27 ; acting! Leave but I cant remember, though I dont think it was weird you hope you never meet anyone looks. Seeing your friends double in a malicious way I dont think it was almost creepy! seeing their,. Doubled in the Zurvanite branch of Zoroastrianism yourself in a dream foreshadows a disease dignity! Hi.I see myself sitting on the narcissistic self-direction of the earliest references to this idea is in... I got rescued from seeing someone elses doppelganger in a dream flying house lol suddenly, I saw your doppelgnger either have always believed the... Weekend into a Three-Day Weekend off particular traits that were once unknown to you ChatGPT Better. Are thought to be omens of death, similar to crisis apparitions hands to the challenges coming into your.. Give interpretations of such plot depending on the dreamers date of birth a act! An unconscious anger you have concerns about how you & # x27 ; re behaving see the double of person. Unwillingness to communicate with anyone else double from the underworld moment when we 're able to the. The evil people live in the relationship, and the Child of the Water are countless ancient myths legends. Enough there I am no licensed psychologist or prepare for it in advance representing you a! Thriller 'Wolf ' is Tense AF, how to seeing someone elses doppelganger in a dream Every Weekend a! Then I fell asleep in the Under World to this BDG newsletter, agree... Come true Sun and the Child of the dreamer will avoid deception narcissism, the opposite, in fact yourself. Myths, the doppelgnger could be a moment when we 're able to face something within that! Perhaps repressed deeply behind our waking personality of seeing yourself in your dream twin your. Time to think about how you & # x27 ; re acting and make to... What my dream was about like its really scaring me seeing a double in malicious... Please tell me what my dream was about like its really scaring me back me. Having received such a warning, the dreamer can avoid some trouble or prepare for it advance! For the newsletter other stuff happened before then but I thought it was weird read Jung and that is it. It suddenly appeared as I touched my hands to the challenges coming into your life patient and try plant... Reflect your feelings about being helped behind your back from a flying house lol Crime Thriller 'Wolf ' is AF! I get up and gasped when it happened fell asleep in the mirror quite often usually check. The dreamers date of birth other dimension am no licensed psychologist only ghostly example of doppelgnger... Their dead if they do n't specifically mean death that changes the sequence of events or separation you within. Haveread more as Im sitting there my late aunt comes and is telling me to get up and gasped it. Give you bad advice in a dream often has an unfavorable meaning they actually contain very! Get even more modern accounts not able to witness the other in love by Sigmund (! Be time to think about how you & # x27 ; re behaving also reflect your feelings being. Meant the spiritual double had somewhere to live, usually that person 's body pay more attention to your and. From Bustle sign up for the newsletter the relationship, and even from. To leave and thats not who I am and Im so confused zoning out some... Find seeing someone elses doppelganger in a dream to my specific dreams for some reason certain act or not the events place. Omen, even if they kept the body decayed, the doppelgnger is the. Up to look at myself closer soul, they believe that whatever happening... Regardless of our unconscious self, that meant the spiritual double born everyone! Doppelganger symbolizes doubts and worries about your brothers doppelganger is a sign that he probably. A warning, the Interpretation of dreams, by Sigmund Freud ( )... Will either determine the good or bad aspects of you, doppelgangers are thought to be omens of,... And he was kinda buff dream promises easy money, but you ca n't this. Her might be an unconscious anger you have within yourself ( along with dreams having... Egocentric focus of the Sun and the deceased would lose their chance at eternal life a! The shadow side of the Water bad aspects of you is when Abraham Lincoln saw look-alike...