Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. She is not mentioning sin in any case. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. Please join our community. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. Just keep it shorter than his response. In fact, when it is used in the Septuagint to talk about people who have different fathers or mothers, it is only ever used to describe people in the case of half siblings, of having different fathers, not different mothers . Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Make an Appointment How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. Or are they all good? It follows that Mary is the mother of God. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Thats kind of hard. Do you know him? So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. Honestly, Id have to think about it. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. Alright? Wouldnt they have noticed that their child up to the age of 12 or 13, however, she was, that she had not committed a single sin? If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. No, it doesnt. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. The relevance would be that you are using it. And this is what I did in the opening statement. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. September 16, 2018 by Randal. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. It is not considered inspired. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. So lets just stick to scripture. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Really enjoying this. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. They go into the glory of God. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. 0. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. And Steve has not ruled that out. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. Trent, did you want to-. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. Im throwing you a bone here. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. So its irrelevant. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. Protestants disagree. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Same with Matthew 28. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. The son of Jonah? Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. Please click that. So this next question is for you, Steve. Oh, absolutely. With the Bills, he would become one of the game's top kickers. Yeah. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. If she were sinless, what would happen to her if she-. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. We have to remember that. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. In the declaration on the specific dogma, the immaculate conception of Mary, theres absolutely nothing in the dogma itself that says anything that this part is infallible. Overview. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Yeah. Thank you very much, Trent. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. So my point here is clear. Thank you very much, Trent. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. Thats all it is. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. 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